Podcast: Daniel Hill — “Hope has to be married to lament.”
This is the second part of my conversation with Daniel Hill. We continue to discuss whiteness, the sickness of racism, and the complicity of the church, and he minces no words when it comes to his own experience of writing White Awake and continuing on this journey of reconciliation work.
“I think it’s really important that the attitude is marked with humility,” Hill says of white brothers and sisters on this journey. And as he adds, “When we talk about being allies, we’re not talking about being allies with a certain political group or even a certain group of people of Color; we’re talking about being allies with Jesus.”
It is obvious my questions are unformed; when Hill and I sat down for this chat, I was early on in my journey of tangibly committing to antiracist work. Though I had been deconstructing my own racist identity for several years, what that meant for my work was only beginning to become palpable in my life. This is perhaps clearest when I push him to consider the hope that he’s experienced on his journey. To be honest, I thought this was kind of a softball question; surely, as hard as writing White Awake was, there were some good things about it, right?
When I ask the question—as you’ll hear in the podcast—he pauses for a brief moment.
“It’s a nuanced idea, the hope,” Hill remarks. “I agree with what you’re saying, but it has to be married to lament at the same time…lament is not the antithesis of hope…that’s a cautionary word I’d give. I think, whenever especially those of us coming from privileged spaces are talking about hope, it has to be married to lament.”
For Hill, his ultimate hope is not found in his personal growth or even the growth of those around him.
“The ultimate hope is that Jesus is restoring all things.”
Hill is quick to remind anyone listening that the hope is not in other people. “If we’re not on the same page as that, that Jesus is trying to dismantle the old and bring in the new, I don’t know that there actually is a lot of hope,” he says.
You can listen to the second part of our conversation below:
This is a continuation of my podcast, Hope in Hell’s Kitchen. While I hope this episode — and those to come — are heard by many, my intention is for it to become a resource for those who are part of Hope Hell’s Kitchen, a new church in our neighborhood in New York City. I’m excited to see how it grows, and to continue sharing conversations centered around the core values of this new church: Gospel Centered, Antiracist, Spirit-Led Fearlessness, and Neighborhood.
You can stay up-to-date with everything Daniel Hill is up to, and pick up White Awake and White Lies, here.
You can listen to the first part of our interview here.
Listen to Hope in Hell’s Kitchen via Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Breaker, Pocket Casts, RadioPublic, or Anchor.
